This episode features an interview with Enrique Calderon, former Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, a global engineering construction company with a revenue of $15.7B in 2020 and ranked 181 among the Fortune 500. Enrique has spent an impressive 45 years in Treasury. Prior to his 14 years as Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, Enrique spent 29 years working for AT&T or its divested companies, where he took on an assignment in a joint venture with Telefonica in Spain and became regional treasurer for Latin America and later for Europe, the Middle East and Africa. On this episode, Enrique talks about what it was like adopting the Euro at a massive organization, how important it is to understand liquidity whether or not your company is flush with cash, and shares some valuable advice on getting promoted.
This episode features an interview with Enrique Calderon, former Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, a global engineering construction company with a revenue of $15.7B in 2020 and ranked 181 among the Fortune 500.
Enrique has spent an impressive 45 years in Treasury. Prior to his 14 years as Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, Enrique spent 29 years working for AT&T or its divested companies, where he took on an assignment in a joint venture with Telefonica in Spain and became regional treasurer for Latin America and later for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
On this episode, Enrique talks about what it was like adopting the Euro at a massive organization, how important it is to understand liquidity whether or not your company is flush with cash, and shares some valuable advice on getting promoted.
Quotes
“When the treasurer was a man, we used to say cash is king. And when the treasurer was a woman, we used to say cash is queen. But cash is the most important thing that you can have in a corporation. Even better than profits at times, you have to make sure that you have cash flow and that you can meet your needs.”
Time Stamps
*[10:35] Tips on getting promoted
*[15:46] Growing diversity in Corporate America
*[21:45] Introducing the Euro in a massive organization
*[23:56] Look for ways you can reuse skills from previous positions
*[26:27] Why even healtthy companies should understand cash flow
Sponsor
The Invisible Vault is powered by the team at Kyriba, the global leader in cloud treasury and finance solutions, empowering CFOs and their teams to transform how they activate liquidity as a dynamic, real-time vehicle for growth and value creation. To learn more visit www.kyriba.com
Connect with Enrique on LinkedIn
Enrique Calderon: When the treasurer was a man, we used to say cash is king. And when the treasurer was a woman, we used to say cash is queen, but cash is the most important thing that you can have in a corporation. Um, even better than profits at times, you have to make sure that you have cash flow and that you can meet, uh, your needs.
Narrator: Hello and welcome to The Invisible Vault.
This is a special episode featuring an interview with Enrique Calderon, former Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, a global engineering construction company with a revenue of $15.7B in 2020 and ranked 181 among the Fortune 500. Instead of our usual segments, we’ll be diving into finance modernization, something Enrique has seen first-hand over his career.
That’s because Enrique has spent an impressive 45 years in Treasury. Prior to his 14 years as Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, Enrique spent 29 years working for AT&T or its divested companies, where he took on an assignment in a joint venture with Telefonica in Spain and became regional treasurer for Latin America and later for Europe, the Middle East and Africa.
On this episode, Enrique talks about what it was like adopting the Euro at a massive organization, how important it is to understand liquidity whether or not your company is flush with cash, and shares some valuable advice on getting promoted.
But before we get into it, here’s a brief word from our sponsor…
So please enjoy this interview between Enrique Calderon, former Assistant Treasurer at Fluor, and your host, Bob Stark.
Bob Stark: Welcome to The Invisible Vault podcast. I'm Bob Stark and I am joined by an incredibly special guest. Uh, One of my friends in the industry, Enrique Calderon. Enrique, welcome to the show. We got to know each other as the assistant treasurer of Fluor, where you were a client of our organization. We spent lots of time together going through lots of projects, but what's always fascinated me is that your backstory is really very interesting to, I think, to a lot of different people. And I think that's a great place to start our conversation today. So if I may ask, can you walk us through, how did you get to the point of becoming a star in the treasury world and what sort of things led up to that?
Enrique Calderon: Well, thank you Bob, for that introduction. I appreciate it. You know, the family left Cuba Havana in 1966. I was, uh, 15 years old, And, um, and we started working really hard from the start. I went to Rutgers, uh, college in New Brunswick, New Jersey. Uh, I studied, uh, economics there, Went on to, uh, eventually apply at, uh, at, AT&T, in, uh, New Jersey, and, um, I guess got placed in the treasury department as essentially a, uh, a kid that would review, uh, transfer agency type of requirements. Essentially, you know, stap stapling and, and stamping documents coming from brokerage houses and attorneys and so on. At the time AT&T was its own transfer agent. And, uh, I would deal with all these experts in order to change the registration on stocks and bonds, the ventures, et cetera. And was able to get into a programming class. And, uh, anyways, went through the programming route. And, um, you know, after several years of doing that, I left the programming staff, um, and went to a general treasury at headquarters in, um, in Manhattan, in the Wall Street area. I met through that the guy that was to be eventually my key mentor, the treasurer of, uh, AT&T. His name is Larry Prendergast. I was given a PC, one of the first guys at AT&T that got one of those. And I began to work in, uh, how to make a nice treasury, uh, more. I created, uh, you know, software to track commercial paper issuance. And as I said to mechanize the, uh, the accounting, the closing, uh, of all the trades that the temporary cash investment area would, uh, complete throughout the, uh, the month or the quarter. And I got a call, um, while in Chicago at one of the meetings, uh, from Larry's uh, um, secretary saying, "Hey, there's a Spaniard here who is in charge of the finance department our subsidiary, a joint venture that we have in Spain, between AT&T and Telefonica. Larry has recommended you for a job there in Madrid, but you got to come back tonight and you got to interview with the guy tomorrow morning." Obviously my Spanish was up to snuff. I had left Cuba when I was in 10th grade. And, um, and uh, he said, "You will do." The, um, the experience in, uh, in Spain was absolutely, uh, you know, um, career defining. I became more proficient in, uh, business Spanish. I was negotiating contracts, uh, with the banks in Spanish. Um, and, and it was no longer a position where I was kind of, you know, doing the programming only, but it was more, uh, treasury, senior treasury position. Uh, I was giving collections and so I was calling, uh, you know, um, some of my colleagues at Telefonica and other companies to get them to pay their bills with, uh, Telefonica of Spain. Eventually, Larry, um, asked me what I wanted to do. And I said, you know, I'd like to stay in international after the three and a half years there. And, and I, um, and I came back to the states and they gave me, um, project finance for Central America. So I remember going back home and saying to my wife, Edna, "You're not going to see me for six months. I'm just going to work every day, because I'm going to need to, I mean, you know, I don't know anything about this. I got to learn the discipline. Plus I got to learn the background of all these projects." And, uh, I also remember that the guards, security guards, uh, after they saw me a few weeks coming in Saturday and Sunday, one of them came up to me and said, uh, "You work every day?" In any case, I, I, uh, became really proficient at this cause, uh, you know, I, I was able to connect with a lot of the people in, in Central America at the banks at the, uh, international lending institutions. We closed uh an incredible amount, uh, amount of deals in Central America. The team that we have working on this, I had the finance, it was an excellent team from the attorney to the lead sales guy. Um, I want to mention him because he was also critical, Steve Casnell. And, um, I remember that that, uh, he was a master, master negotiator. He understood Spanish and, and he would always, uh, ask everyone after the positions were explained, he would ask them to allow him to repeat them to them, so that he would be certain that he understood them. And, uh, and that's how he would sort of slow down the discussions and be able to, um, you know, kinda, you know, hammer and, and firm up the, the, the conditions. I remember we would go in there with a PC and a bubble printer and anything that was discussed during a day, at the end of the day, we would, you know, uh, succinctly, uh, depict and everyone would initiate initial the sheet of paper. And that was critical as well, because it allowed us to make progress and eventually I got promoted a number of times I, uh, continued to do bigger things in other parts of Latin America. I, um, began to do also the treasury work, cash management, payments and other stuff. I was the regional treasurer for Latin America eventually. And, um, the opportunity then, uh, came to, um, to go back, uh, internationally, uh, to, uh, to the Netherlands. But in total, throughout all the different subsidiaries I spent, uh, 29 years, um, as part of these companies. And so I was able to travel to Ireland, to Spain, to, to Russia, Poland, Germany, you know, uh, closing deals, uh, supervising a team that was closing deals, Egypt, uh, was also, um, and, um, it was a very, very rewarding, um, assignment. And at the end of that, I came back and, um, joined the team and, and, uh, you know, in the United States, And, um, I remember the, uh, treasurer, uh, um, here in Tex, uh, a Fluor in, in, uh, California, um, call me and said, you know, you've been, um, identified as a potential candidate to come over. And so I'd like to meet you. And, uh, started to work, uh, temporarily in California in 2006 and eventually moved my family and bought a home here in South Lake, Texas. And, um, and the, and the assignment again was amazing. To be the corporate finance assistant treasurer. And again, uh, I had done some corporate finance, but not a lot. And so I had to begin to, uh, refresh, uh, everything that I had done, um, before and, and, and more, um, and the assignment was amazing. Um, a lot of, uh, things that the company did not have from, from promissary notes to document into company funding, to, uh, notional cash pooling, to counterparty credit risk management to, uh, getting, uh, you know, a major a software company to provide, uh, FX and commodity, uh, risk management, I was also assigned, uh, what we called and I sort of, uh, define the strategy for a treasury automation initiative, which was to, uh, enable, uh, swift in the, uh, in the company. Um, and, and then eventually select, uh, TMS, et cetera. And that's how I met Kyriba.
Bob Stark: That was a great run. So speaking about AT&T, you kept getting opportunities to do more. And what do you attribute that to? I mean, I know you say it like, matter of fact, like it happens to everyone, oh I kept getting promoted, but it happened for a reason. So what's the secret to your success? What w what made it so easy for them to promote you?
Enrique Calderon: At times it wasn't easy to get promoted. It was, um, challenging to get promoted. Um, I think, you know, number one, I, um, I always tried to get, uh, any assignment done as quickly as possible with excellence. I always remember, my mother always would say the lazy man works double. Um, he works the first time and doesn't get it right. And then he has to realize he did it incorrectly and then has to do it again. And so that was always in the back of my mind. Um, and so I've always tried to, uh, you know, as best as I can to, uh, you know, if I draft something, I review it 20 times. Um, you know, that's, that's the way I work. Um, at the same time, I always try to, um, get help. I, I, I know that I don't know everything when I go into something where I'm not so sure what I should be doing. And, uh, and I'm not afraid to say, "I don't know this," of a colleague or something, you know, uh, you know, Japanese lease financing really well? Explain it to me. You know, and, and you learn. By admitting, you know, that you don't know everything, you have to do that. Um, the team I've always, as I got promoted and got, uh, employees to supervise, I always tried to recruit the best that I could and surround myself with the best that I could. Um, and, and, um, that helped me a lot because I got a reputation for being a very good recruiter. The kids that I recruited as I moved up the line were superstars that eventually became superstars in all the places within the company. Even after coming back, for example, from Spain, um, I remember I in Spain, I had an intern who was, um, a superstar. And, uh, and then we put in place a program where we brought interns from Spain into the treasury department. And when people at large, so him in Hugo's his name, um, uh, you know, people said, wow, that's a good kid you got there, Calderon, you know. So the mentorship, you can't do anything in corporate America without the right mentor. And I was fortunate enough to have the treasurer, uh, be my mentor. And so, you know, a combination of all of this, great people around me that would recognize and like me, cause I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm always, you know, goofing around and kind of, um, you know, open and, uh, not so formal. Uh, some people might be very formal and I kind of bring in, uh, you know, informality to the relationship to a certain extent. Um, if I have to be formal, I'll be formal. And, but my, my way of being is informal and easy going and so on and so forth.
Bob Stark: Well, I dare say you didn't use these words, but I'm going to add them into the conversation. It's that positivity uh, that it's very disarming. And I think it just draws people to want to talk to you. I mean, throughout all your answers, you know, you've brought in great teams, you sought expertise when you needed to learn something. Not everyone has makes time for that. And yet they made time for you, to help, you know, buy into your vision in terms of what you wanted to accomplish and what you're able to deliver.
Enrique Calderon: I've always been an optimist. When people I think there is an obstacle and that we will not surpass it, I always find a way to surpass it. I never initially give up and say, oh my God, that's going to be undoable. In fact, I go in perhaps innocently, you know, thinking I'll get it done, you know? And so that, that there is no question that you touched on something that I wasn't even thinking about. But yes, that definitely impacted my life. And I've always think, uh, I always, uh, tried to be as optimistic as possible. Even at, at the end with the treasury automation initiative, lots of people would say, do you really know what you're tackling here? And, and, uh, and I never sort of said to myself, oh my God, this is going to take three, four years. And, you know, we could fail. You know, the treasurer said, "Can you get this done?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm gonna get it." And I, and we did. You know, with a good team around me that, that put in the effort to, to, you know, I led, but they put in a lot of effort to achieve it.
Bob Stark: I think that'd becomes very obvious and it's that how it translates to an attitude of I'm just going to get this done. I mean, even as you went through your story, there's so many different, I'm almost thinking the word, "barriers," but it's you saw them as opportunities, not as barriers. You know, like, okay, we need to go deal with a joint venture in Spain. Oh, sure. I'll do that. I came back from the, you know, from Europe and needed a job and okay, let's find out how to do that. You know, even early on your career, it's the examples kind of build upon themselves that everything was an opportunity.
Enrique Calderon: Yeah. I agree with, I agree with you. I think, you know, that doesn't mean I wasn't scared. You know, but, but I, I, you know, I never allowed my apprehensions and, and, and society to, um, to prevent me from, from actually going and doing. You know, and I think that that's, uh, when one needs to do it, I think also that, uh, you know, in terms of the, the time in which I went into, um, corporate America was a, was a time, you know, 1975 graduated from college was a time of great change in corporate America. Where, where, uh, you know, a kid like me, looking like me with my background and so on and so forth, actually ended up in one of the biggest corporations in the world. I was, um, fortunate to be around and a number of employees at, AT&T that were heavily involved with, uh, HISPA, uh, which was the Hispanics, uh, organization at, uh, AT&T and, uh, you know, learned a lot. Um, a lot of, uh, senior people were involved that will come in. Well, there was a conference every year and, uh, there would, it would be rotated through, um, different cities because eventually AT&T um, uh, had these, uh, HISPA, um, chapters, I would call them throughout the United States. I mean, the whole approach was that AT&T was one of the, the first companies to really, uh, focus on diversity. I think that, uh, the fact that it, that it had, um, retail operations, right, dealing with the public was, um, was what created their interest and making sure that people felt included. And it was a very inclusive organization and, uh, and different groups, um, African Americans had a group, uh, the Native Americans had a group, Asian Pacific, had a group, and once in a while, uh, those groups would get together and, and dialogue with upper management about, um, you know, how to make the, the environment in the corporation, more inclusive, uh, none of the groups by the way were, um, uh, uh, preventing, uh, anybody from participating in their own groups, so to speak. So there was a lot of cross participation and, and, uh, from, from, you know, from different genders and ethnic backgrounds, religions, you name it. Um, one thing that I remember, uh, distinctly, uh, was, uh, I went to a HISPA conference and, uh, And at the time, uh, there was a, um, a, a presidential election campaign going on and several of the, uh, of the, uh, uh, candidates came to, um, a meeting that LULAC, League of United Latin American Citizens, mainly participated, uh, by, by Mexican-Americans, but it was so the candidates came to this LULAC meeting and I was there and I remember shaking, uh, Mr. Bush, the older Mr. Bush's. He was campaigning, uh, uh, you know, shaking his hand. I was young, uh, at this, uh, event and, uh, In any case, the whole idea, um, of inclusion and diversity was, um, promoted by the corporation. One thing that sticks in my mind is, um, one time an expert came in to talk to us because you were enrolled in classes where sociologists will come in and kind of highlight what people of different backgrounds were experiencing in America. And, um, and, um, this, this sociologist, uh, his last name was , eh, came in and he related his story. He was a product of, uh, two addicts, one of, um, African, Puerto Rican descent, and one of Spaniard Puerto Rican descent. Um, and, um, he w he had a terrible, um, you know, childhood until the Korean American, uh, teacher took an interest in him and mentored him as he grew up. But Don says eventually made it to Harvard and had a PhD in sociology because of, um, the Korean American teacher. And, uh, one of the things that he related in the session I still remember to this day is, um, when my daughter is competing with a under privileged child in America, that under privilege child in America it's not competing solely with my daughter. Is competing with my daughters and me, he would say, because I have the means to provide things that she may need. I can give her a computer. I can give her books. I can give her a tutor. I can give her a lot of things that perhaps an underprivileged child can not gain access to. And, um, and that stuck in my mind as something that, that is, uh, important to remember, um, you know, from those days.
Bob Stark: One thing I want to circle back on that you glossed over a little bit, but was it's so pivotal, um, again, In the backdrop of what was going on from a treasury standpoint, and that was the adoption of the Euro. And so when you were the, you know, the treasurer, european treasurer, um, at, AT&T, you had to bring the Euro into a huge organization. That's not an insignificant transformation. I mean, there's a lot of transformations that you've done in your career. Maybe that was relatively simple, but certainly it was impactful. So I'd love to hear your viewpoint on what was that like in terms of seeing that, what became, uh, a bullet point, a significant bullet point on trajectory and your career path. And you were in Europe as the Euro was being adopted. That had to be an interesting transformation, not only from a treasury perspective but while you were leading treasury in what became the EuroZone. That had to have been quite the project.
Enrique Calderon: I do think that, uh, um, was a big job. I went there in 98, I believe. And I came back in 2001, um, there was, there will be meetings, you know, every week, you know, with a team of, uh, colleagues and, and, and, um, teammates that, uh, you know, that I supervised to go through all the logistical, you know, um, issues, uh, in every country where we had bank accounts and every, with every bank, et cetera, to make sure that, you know, the transfer from the local currency to Euro would take place correctly, that, uh, any of the contracts, um, that were based on, on, uh, you know, throughout the region that were based on local currency got, you know, converted correctly. There were weekly meetings with IT, with tax, with the sales teams, with the local management, with the banks, you know, to, um, to make sure that everything was done appropriately. And the conversion from the local currencies, uh, to the Euro took place, you know, accounting in terms of functional currency, the subsidiaries, it was massive.
Bob Stark: It's interesting how, when you describe it that way, because you describe it, like it's a series of items on a checklist and not to take away, obviously from the larger project goals, but your level of preparation, the meticulous preparation that you went through, allowed it to become an easier task overall easier projects, simply because you're able to check off the list instead of thinking, oh my goodness, we have to go from this multiple basket of currencies to a Euro. That's a big project. That's a lot going on. And yet you're able to deliver like it's any other project.
Enrique Calderon: The main thing, uh, I think, um, that helped me, um, again, and, and it, I want to make this point because it, it has helped me in my entire career, even though I, I really never went through a pro project management type of course, or a curriculum per se, the, the, the experiences, um, being a, um, software developer, where they teach you a lot of project management techniques and, and, you know, create your main line and then expand on the main line and everything is sort of very, uh, well chunked down until you, you get your results. All of those things have helped me immensely in my career because I was able to reuse stuff that I had developed and not have to use it again. And that was something that was taught to me early on when I was beginning to develop. And when you develop a software, you know, software, one of the things you have to do is you have to go through a run through, a walkthrough of what your solution is going to look like and what it is. I was told at the very beginning, I didn't know this existed. You invite a number of your colleagues, some seniors, some juniors, some your, you know, your peers and you invite them to this session in which you present how you're going to solve this, um, this job that you've been given, this challenge. And during that conversation, that session, someone would say, you know, you're going to need a sort there, right? You don't need to worry about that. I have a sort, I'll just send you the routine, and you just call it. You know, and that teaches you that there's a lot of things in life that you can develop yourself or get from colleagues that have been developed and all you need to do is call them again, reuse them again. You don't need to develop everything every single time.
Bob Stark: It shows how organized that you are, that you are able to think that way, classify that way as you go. And so that you're actually able to recall data information and documents that continue to help you.
Bob Stark: But there's a couple other things I want to ask you cause we didn't really talk about Fluor very much. One thing at Fluor that has always interested me because you'd shared one of the goals was to ensure that the company understood cash and liquidity better. So can you walk us through, what was the interest at the time? Like why did a Fluor, a company that had such a significant, like such a great balance sheet, very healthy from a cash standpoint, why did an organization so flush with cash need to understand cash and liquidity better?
Enrique Calderon: Yeah. I think, uh, you know, amongst the leadership, there was always the, the goal and objective to make sure that throughout the company, um, the staff personnel that was not, uh, In daily contact with, uh, with cash would understand the importance and value of, you know, uh, cash flow. You know, um, I remember being in projects in which, um, we in treasury were leading, educating the rest of the organization about cash flow. You know what, uh, I don't remember, uh, you know, some, some sayings like, you know, cash collected faster, spend it, you know, um, uh, less, less fast or whatever it may be. I forget right now, but, um, delay is, it's the word, the word I was looking for, delayed it's expense expenditure, um, all throughout the, the career, you know, um, at Fluor, we, we had a very nice, uh, cash position and, uh, But at the same time, we always felt, uh, obligated to make sure that others understood the importance of it. Even when, when we had, um, you know, a lot of cash available. And, um, anyways, I remember there was a vice chairman who left the company, um, Mr. Dobbs, who, um, I used to sort of meet with him as I left. Initially, I was working really insane hours, you know, to kind of get up to speed in a new company. And, uh, he was working insane hours. And so I would see him as I leave the company at times and he would say to me, "What's the matter, Calderon? Can't get it done in eight hours?" As we both were leaving at some ungodly hour. Oh, you know, and, and he was the one that will say, "What are you guys doing with all this cash?" You know, "Why do we have so much cash?" You know, But at the same time, he would tell me, you know, make sure that no one spends it, you know, uh, unreasonably or irresponsibly, you know. So I think the company always had a good sense of, um, of the importance of cash and, um, and it's, uh, and how important it was to educate the rest of the company about it it's important as well.
Um, and that's why, you know, the treasury automation initiative, which was an, uh, you know, an initiative to make sure that liquidity was, uh, reported more timely, that we have more certainty on what that liquidity was, that, uh, we energized that liquidity, you know, via processes like notional cash pooling, et cetera. Um, so that, uh, that liquidity could be utilized more wisely, more timely. Um, that was always a goal.
Bob Stark: Yeah. I want to say it's most organizations at that time weren't thinking that way. I think fast forward a decade and they definitely are thinking that way now. I mean, the thirst for cash, even when you have a flushed balance sheet is such that I can actually make this liquidity work for me, whether it's returning to shareholders, whether it's investing in the business and the fact that you were doing that well before anyone else was really paying attention to this I think once again shows the pioneering we'll just say mechanisms and capabilities and outcomes that you brought to the table in treasury.
Enrique Calderon: The previous treasurer, um, won an award. I don't recall which bank nominated her for that right after the financial crisis or towards the end of the financial crisis that started in '08, '07 was already being looked at it and then it hit, uh, you know, September of '08 with Lehman, uh, and, and so on and so forth. But, um, um, she won an award or, um, and, um, and one of the, um, finance publications for going through the financial crisis without, uh, suffering any loss in cash. People that I was associated with in my previous life who were amazingly smart and, um, all of a sudden when the crisis hit, um, they were invested in some things that just exploded and lost hundreds of millions of dollars and, uh, until their career. Uh, their career was, you know, their careers were impacted by this, this event. So, you know, it's, uh, it's interesting. You, you asked this question about cash because I've always been involved in treasury. My entire career was in treasury from, you know, the guy that used to stamp paper and move it along, to then senior positions in various organ subgroups, uh, disciplines of, of treasury. And, um, and so my perspective on cash, you know, we used to say when the treasurer was a man, we used to say cash is king. And when the treasurer was a woman, we used to say cash is queen, but cash is the most important thing that you can have in a corporation. Um, even better than profits at times, you have to make sure that you have cash flow and that you can meet, uh, your needs. The valuation of a business is based on cash flow, um, and so on and so forth.
Bob Stark: Yeah, that shines a light on why the cash forecast is still the most coveted capability and feature in software, is because you need to understand what your cashflow is going to be, what it is now and what it's going to be as that indicator of financial health.
Enrique Calderon: A lot of people, um, you know, when you reminisce, uh, about, uh, like I'm doing right now with you, a lot of people have been instrumental and helped. You know, it's, it hasn't been just, uh, Enrique Calderon, but it's, uh, it's been out of work, you know, as they say, you know, it takes a village. I definitely think that in my case, it took a village, uh, of not one single place, but throughout the world, um, you know, the right contacts, the right, uh, friendships, the right relationships to, uh, to be able to succeed. It could not happen, uh, without that assistance.
Bob Stark: Oh, You're right. It does take a village, but it also takes a leader. And so I think that's a that maybe the icing I would add onto the cake that you've already built in his conversation is that it, every village requires a visionary to be able to progress.
Enrique Calderon: Yeah. That's a good thought. Absolutely.
Bob Stark: Yeah. It's probably the one that we'll conclude on. Thank you for this. This is really fantastic.
Enrique Calderon: Thank you for giving me the opportunity.
Narrator: Thank you for listening to The Invisible Vault.
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