This episode features an interview with Sinohe Terrero, CFO at Envoy. Envoy is a workplace platform that solves the complexity of hybrid work. Sinohe has over 15 years of leadership experience. He stepped into his current role as Envoy’s CFO in 2020. Prior to Envoy, Sinohe served as CFO and COO of Quid Inc., a big data and analytics company. He has also worked at Indiegogo and Etsy. Sinohe holds an MBA in Finance from Baruch College in New York City. On this episode, Sinohe discusses his #1 indispensable tech tool, how he identified and filled gaps in his resume to land him his current role as CFO, and how just because you have money doesn’t mean you have liquidity.
This episode features an interview with Sinohe Terrero, CFO at Envoy. Envoy is a workplace platform that solves the complexity of hybrid work.
Sinohe has over 15 years of leadership experience. He stepped into his current role as Envoy’s CFO in 2020. Prior to Envoy, Sinohe served as CFO and COO of Quid Inc., a big data and analytics company. He has also worked at Indiegogo and Etsy. Sinohe holds an MBA in Finance from Baruch College in New York City.
On this episode, Sinohe discusses his #1 indispensable tech tool, how he identified and filled gaps in his resume to land him his current role as CFO, and how just because you have money doesn’t mean you have liquidity.
Quotes
*“I consider myself blessed to have been put in situations that I think are unique for people that come from where I come from. I sit at these board meetings with all these very well known VCs and a lot of times you think, ‘Do I even belong here?’ And that goes back to the first time you're made a director or the first time that you're in a reputable company or the first time you wear a tie, honestly. I mean, you kind of feel like, ‘Hey, when is the other shoe gonna drop?’ Because it's not supposed to happen for me. So you have to mentally get over that hurdle to be like, ‘No, I do belong.”…”You wanna feel like, ‘I belong in this class. I prepared. Everything that I get here I deserve.’ So you have to have that mentality to constantly give a hundred percent.”
*“I always raised my hand when I saw a problem. I was like, ‘Hey, you know what? We have a problem there I think I can help solve, or I think I can help improve it at that scale.’ And I was just never afraid to take the leap of faith. And quite frankly, faith in myself that if another human can solve this problem, I can probably solve it myself too. But it's like, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room. But one thing that I tell my son is no one can outwork me. And I know that, so I am gonna raise my hand.”
*”I was at a startup before that ran out of money. And one of the things that I noticed when I was there was there were some gaps in my resume. Like,I felt like I could do things, but my resume didn't say that. And so at that moment, I had to say, ‘Okay, well, what am I gonna do? Because I don't wanna be overlooked again.’ And what I ended up doing was taking a pay cut and taking a lower ranking job to gain the skills that I needed so that I can say in my resume, I have seen and done that. And so that was sort of a pause moment to be like, my charm is not gonna get me where I need to go. I need to make sure that I make the right career decisions even if it means short term sacrifice… Quite frankly, I needed to be honest with myself, right? I think sometimes you need to be able to look and be humble. And be real. Like, ‘What are the things that are missing? What are my growth areas?’ And, ‘Am I just being overlooked and am I being the victim here or are there things that I need to work on?’ And clearly I identified that, I made the move and it paid off for me.”
*“I think the CFO has evolved from closing the books and making sure taxes are paid, to really being a thought leader and strategic leader, particularly because you own data”...“You are at the Vanguard, you are in the front because you are part of that intimate sausage making process, even in the product development.”
*”Back when I was at Etsy, if you raised a 10 million round at 200 million, you were crushing it. And so the rounds were smaller, the valuations were lower. And quite frankly, I think that led to a bit more efficiency. You had to grind it out a bit more. And now over the last couple of years that's really changed. Like the dollars that people are raising are just exponential and the valuations are astronomic. So that creates a different kind of pressure on the team, particularly on FP and A and how you think about it because you're dealing with less mature organizations that you have to continue to educate on the fact that just because you have a hundred million dollars in the bank does not mean we can have bouncy houses and unlimited Kombucha. You still have to be thoughtful about long-term planning.”
*“Everyone has a little bit of PTSD, no matter how much money you have in the bank. Because you don't know when the next thing is gonna happen. And clearly the economy is showing the third COVID cousin when it comes to financial impact. And so I think it's changed. I think the space has changed. I think the amount of money people are raising has changed. And that has really changed how you gotta think about your organization on the finance side, and have really strict - not strict, but clear - guardrails, so that you're not just completely running off the map.”
*“As a CFO, you're flying a plane. You have a bunch of different gauges and you're just looking to make sure none of them are going into the red. But not any one of those gauges is the only gauge you look at.”
*”I was talking to a company last week that was basically saying - it was a CFO - and he was saying that one of the things that he needs to continue to educate the CEO on is the fact that because they have money does not mean they have liquidity. Like because of where the money is stored and how they're being able to finance. So they are asset rich, but liquidity poor. And so literally that conversation happened last week. And I think as we get into more complex vehicles in the future, I think there's definitely gonna be more and more need for this to be a focus area because it's not gonna be that straightforward. We're not just gonna be dealing in USD sitting in something that you can liquidate right away. Like there's gonna be complexity to how you're gonna be deploying that capital. And there's gonna be complexity to how you retrieve said capital.”
Time Stamps
*[5:19] How to get over imposter syndrome
*[9:15] Sinohe’s path to CFO
*[15:15] Segment: The Playbook
*[16:01] Segment: Cash Crossroads
*[37:01] Segment: Report From the Future
*[41:51] Predictions for the future CFO
Sponsor
The Invisible Vault is powered by the team at Kyriba, the global leader in cloud treasury and finance solutions, empowering CFOs and their teams to transform how they activate liquidity as a dynamic, real-time vehicle for growth and value creation. To learn more visit www.kyriba.com
Links
Connect with Sinohe on LinkedIn
Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
Sinohe Terrero: Everyone has a little bit of PTSD, no matter how much money you have in the bank. Um, because you don't know when the next thing is gonna happen. And clearly the economy is, is showing like the third, like, you know, uh, COVID cousin, uh, when it comes to, you know, financial impact. And, um, and so I think it's changed. I think the, the, the space has changed. I think the amount of money people are raising has changed. Um, and that has really changed how you gotta think about your organization, the, from on the finance side, uh, and have really strict, not strict. But Clear, um, guardrails, uh, so that you're not just completely running off the map.
Narrator: Hello and welcome to The Invisible Vault.
This episode features an interview with Sinohe Terrero, CFO at Envoy. Envoy is a workplace platform that solves the complexity of hybrid work.
Sinohe has over 15 years of leadership experience. He stepped into his current role as Envoy’s CFO in 2020. Prior to Envoy, Sinohe served as CFO and COO of Quid Inc., a big data and analytics company. He has also worked at Indiegogo and Etsy. Sinohe holds an MBA in Finance from Baruch College in New York City.
On this episode, Sinohe discusses his #1 indispensable tech tool, how he identified and filled gaps in his resume to land him his current role as CFO, and how just because you have money doesn’t mean you have liquidity.
But before we get into it, here’s a brief word from our sponsor…
Narrator: So please enjoy this interview with Sinohe Terrero, CFO at Envoy, and your host, Daniel Shaffer.
Daniel Shaffer: Sinohe, how you doing today?
Sinohe Terrero: Doing pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good. Cuz I'm in the office and we have air conditioning. I think if I was home, I'd be feeling a little different.
Daniel Shaffer: Yeah, well, the last time we spoke, We heard a little bit about background and really that kind of early beginning in a, fight for survival mentality. And just kind of fully taking responsibility for every part of what would be your future. And I was just, you know, really inspired by that. I was especially inspired by idea that, There's no real perfect starting point for anybody. It's what you put into it. That ownership and responsibility you take, and then you carry it through. And I just would love to hear about you Sinohe, because there's so much that we're gonna dive into on the Invisible Vault. But I think that message is one that resonates, especially with our audience, that idea that you've gotta fight for what you believe in and that you have something inside of you that drive that fire. So can you tell us just, you, you shared with me that you're from the Bronx, probably not the Bronx of today, a lot of gentrification happening in the Bronx And I'm just curious, you know, what was that environment like? And how did that set you on pace for where you are today?
Sinohe Terrero: Yeah. It definitely was not the gentrified Bronx that we have now. For sure. I grew up, in basically in the shadows of Yankee stadium. the actual areas called Morrisania, and it's, you know, a little bit north of what you would consider the south Bronx and what people remember as like the Bronx is burning area back in the seventies and yeah, I'd say. it was an interesting time and area to grow up in. We basically like our whole world was our block. Right? Like you did your shopping. Bodega in the corner, you never really left the block for whatever reason. And, you know, we didn't see Manhattan until we were teenagers. Like there was no reason to go to Manhattan. You did everything around there. And I think I was pretty lucky that when we were in eighth grade, we were surrounded by some teachers that. Quite frankly, were not allowing us to think less of ourselves than our full potential. And it was sort of like a mantra for three particular teachers to basically never let one of the kids think that they're less than they could be. And I think that really pushed, you know, some of us to really push ourselves and not to think. That block that we were exposed to was the end of it. And so to this day, I'm incredibly grateful to those folks, cuz they had real influence on us back then. But you really had to, you know, look at your strengths, focus on it and really get over the imposter syndrome that you are sort of bred with since you're a baby.
Daniel Shaffer: Yeah, that's an interesting point about the imposter syndrome because you know, how do. know where you are and how do you get to that next place without really making a huge leap. one of my favorite authors is James Baldwin and his book that I have on my shelf is the price of the ticket. And he just talks about a lot of different things, but one of them is there's always a give and take. When you're going from one circle to the next. And I'm just wondering if that's what you're kind of feeling or referencing when you talk about imposter syndrome.
Sinohe Terrero: Well, I mean, I think it's interesting because, I consider myself blessed to have been put in situations that I think are unique for people that come from where I come from. Right. Like I sit at these board meetings with all these very well known VCs and you know, sometimes a lot of times you think like, do I even belong here? You know? And that goes back to the first time, you know, you're made a director or the first time that you're in a reputable company or the first time you wear a tie, honestly. I mean, we , you know, like, all of those things kind of feel like, Hey, when is the other shoe gonna drop? Because I, you know, it's not supposed to happen for me kind of. So you have to mentally get over that herd to be like, no, you know, I do belong. And whether that is, I belong in the class or, you know, I belong in this school I remember distinctly that in college when tests would start, I had a habit of basically never turning the paper over, when the professor says, Hey, turn the paper over. I would rock back and forth. And I would look around the room and I would be like, no one in here prepare better than me. So, therefore I have no fear. I have to basically put 150%, Cause it was up to me to prepare. Right. And so rather than like get nervous, it was always like this competition because you wanna feel like I belong in this class. I prepared, everything that I get here I deserve. So you have to have that mentality to constantly give a hundred percent.
Daniel Shaffer: talking about being in the classroom. I'm just curious. were you the front of the class or are you back the class guy?
Sinohe Terrero: I was a friend of the class guy, cuz I knew that I , again, you gotta, you know, know.
Daniel Shaffer: Yeah.
Sinohe Terrero: I was gonna be in the back of the class, I was probably gonna be distracted. I kind of knew that I had a task. in order for me to get my goals. I needed to buffer myself from myself. If you will.
Daniel Shaffer: Smart. Good to have that advice about really knowing what you bring to the table and what gives you the most opportunity to succeed. At what point did you feel like finance was it? I mean, how do you go just trying as hard as you can to be the best and most prepared to saying, okay, you know what finance, that's where I wanna be?
Sinohe Terrero: It's interesting. Cuz I thought I was gonna be a music producer. That was my first sort of career. So I started school thinking I was gonna be an, electronic engineering because you needed to learn that in order to work with the big boards. Like when you see like the big boards in the studios, you need to understand how to fix them. And so my twin brother and I, we had a production studio, we did a bunch of stuff. We did a lot of music production and we thought, you know, we were gonna be that. You're gonna see me on MTV. And about a year in, he said, Hey, I'm changing my mind and I'm going to law school. So I'm gonna I'm transfer. And I was like, oh, whoa, okay. The dream is dead. And at that point I was like, well, what am I good at? And I was good at math and statistics. And I just basically like gradually found myself in like finance and accounting, because that was the most logical place where I thought, you know, my brother was going for the safe, like law thing, you know you're gonna get a job. And I was like, well, where am I gonna get a job? And that's kinda how it ended. And again, we were identical twins, but he's better at, like reading and writing, and I'm better at math and science. And so we picked those two paths and that's how I ended up in finance and accounting.
Daniel Shaffer: Just the path that was most comfortable. I love it, Finances is something that came natural to you, as you said where did it become finance as a business leader and the CFO role today is more than just math and finance. It's a lot of things. And certainly knowing kind of from a DJ standpoint, how to turn all the dials and what dials you need to turn and what to mix in at what time, you know, that kind of sound studio offers an interesting analogy. Can you tell me what it was that really got you excited about moving upwards in the ranks of the, or the role.
Sinohe Terrero: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it was luck. Quite frankly, I was going down what I considered to be sort of like a structured path, if you will. And I had been at a startup that ran out of money and then I went to Citi, but I didn't work in the banking section of Citi. I worked at the global transactions group and what they did was help companies prepare for an IPO. Right? So it's a unique place where we help with like DS documents at 10 Ks, but it was still a very much a structured kind of PWC thing. I think where it really changed was when I decided I was leaving there, I was gonna work at at a VC firm and, my supervisor at the time, the SVP that I reported to said, Hey, I know this person. She's looking for someone to help her build her team like her function. I think you would really enjoy working with her. And that's when I went and interviewed at Etsy. And I think where it really started to change was when I joined Etsy in 2008, I was the first finance person there. There were only 70 of us and you really had to figure out how to do everything. And what I quickly saw was, Hey, I can have impact in a bunch of different areas here. it gave me the opportunity to lead. You know, I build a data team before data was sexy. Like there were no data scientists in 2008. Now everyone has a cousin as a data scientist, but back then, you know, you were lucky if you knew somebody that had like access, you know, powers in Microsoft access. And so I think for me, it was really, you know, joining a place that gave me the opportunity to look at the different functions and see how I can have impact. And again, I think blessed to have that opportunity earlier on in my career show that. Raise my hand and have impact.
Daniel Shaffer: And, you know, you're kind of getting into this idea of setting up teams coming off this just a different platform and making a quick pivot. Do you feel like that's defining moment in your life that you've been able to shift quickly and adapt to new environments. And how did you get to that place?
Sinohe Terrero: You know, I tell this a lot to young professionals that are thinking about their career trajectory and they join startups for the promise of doing a lot of things in startups. I said, for me, what really worked was, you know, there was an American Airlines commercial. That there was a guy I'll call him Bob. And they were like, randomly say, Hey, we need somebody to go to Iowa. And Bob will raise his hand. And then they're like, we need someone to go to Milwaukee and Bob will raise his hand. And then one day they came in looking for someone to volunteer to go to some other non-descript place. And they were like, where's Bob and Bob was vacationing with all the points he got from raising his hands. Right. And so what I say is I always raised my hand when I saw a problem, I was like, Hey, you know what we have a problem there. Like, I think I can help solve, or I think I can help improve it at that scale. And I was just never afraid to take the leap of faith and quite frankly, faith in myself that if another human can solve this problem, I can probably solve it myself too, but it's like, you know, I'm not the smartest guy in the room, but one thing that I tell my son is no one can outwork me. And I know that, so I am gonna raise my hand and I'm gonna be Bob. And right now I feel like I'm living off those, you know, frequent flyer miles.
Daniel Shaffer: That's awesome. you gave me a nice moment with a teacher that pushed you to be the best version of you, but was there a moment that really confronted you completely where you had to say to yourself, okay, this is gonna be either I'm gonna make a bridge or I'm gonna fall into the chasm.
Sinohe Terrero: I think something that's happened that's done that. I mean, even how I ended up working at Citi, as I mentioned, I was at a startup before that they ran out of money. And one of the things that I noticed when I was there were some gaps in my resume, Like, I felt like I could do things. But my resume didn't say that. And so at that moment, I had to say, okay, well, what am I gonna do? Because I don't wanna be overlooked again. And what I ended up doing was taking a pay cut and taking sort of a lower ranking job, if you will, to gain the skills that I needed so that I can say in my resume, I have seen and done that. And so that was sort of a pause moment to be like, just my charm is not gonna get me, you know, where I need to go. I need to make sure that I make the right career decisions even if it means short term sacrifice. So even going into Citi, I knew that it was gonna be a short stint, but I knew that the group that I joined was gonna do the things that I needed, which was work with companies going public. but it takes a lot to say, you're gonna make a job change and take a step back. when you have bills to pay to say you're gonna lower your salary. But thankfully that gamble paid off for me, but it was a moment where I needed to figure out, well, what is the holding point? And quite frankly, I needed to be honest with myself, right? I think sometimes you need to be able to look and be, you know, humble. And be real, like, what are the things that are missing? What are my growth areas? And, you know, am I just being overlooked and am I being the victim here or are there things that I need to work on? And clearly I identified that I made the move and it paid off for me.
Daniel Shaffer: Oh, that's great. You know, here on the Invisible Vault, we've had such a diverse amount of CFOs, finance leaders company leaders, and we're learning that there's just no straight path and there's not even a predictable course that would say this guarantees me the CFO spot. But what I have heard is it's the kind of vision for moving forward and making the best outta the moment with what you have. And I think that what you just shared, Sinohe, really a critical piece of this puzzle that in short-term sacrifices for long-term gains means that you're setting yourself up for the big picture down the road. And I just wanted to say, thanks for sharing that kind of moment that maybe not everybody was ready for. But I think it adds a new dimension to the podcast. So I appreciate.
let's dive into the playbook.
This section is really about you, the CFO, where you are today and kind of looking back at how you enable the organization with all of the skills and all of the training that you came up with making the right decisions, building those bridges, using your charisma and outpacing your competition. How does your workload today kind of stack up in terms of your ability to collaborate between finance or sales or maybe the board?
Sinohe Terrero: I mean, currently I am actually the CFO the acting CRO interim, even though we have a CRO starting in a few weeks. And so this is my second time actually being the CFO and running sales, which is tricky. Very tricky to do, but in terms of the question, you know, I think the number one job for all finance leaders is really figuring out how to enable others to get their job done. So for me, that is tricky because some folks think they need more than the organization can give them. Right. So thing that I think I always try to focus on, particularly when I join a company is building trust. Right? I have a saying that doesn't sound great, but here will work with me here on this, I have this thing where I call it butter and knife. what I tell 'em is say, listen, first you have to butter people up. You have to gain their trust because you're gonna be poking them. You're gonna be telling them no in situations where they're gonna be uncomfortable, you're gonna be, you know, you're gonna be the bearer of bad news. It's gonna be a big difference if they hear a no, from someone they trust. And they know that that person is still coming with best intentions in mind. Then someone that just basically says no, because they have the power to say no. And so if you butter people up, you can poke them and they will be like, oh, it's just Sinohe saying no, but if I come in too hard and I say the same thing. Then I'm the bad guy. And so, for me is a tricky balance letting people know that, Hey, I'm practical, I'm pragmatic. I am not dense. I see the challenges around I think for me, I'm actually fortunate that I've run sales. So I have, I understand what having that number in my head means. And it's more than just whatever I put on my spreadsheet as a CFO, right? Like I am more critical. I'm a more critical thinker when it comes to the challenges a better, I think partner, because I understand how to negotiate that side of the house. And so for me, doing all of this stuff, I think is really about empowering people to do their job. And I know that sounds cliche-ish, but there is an elegant, delicate balance of how you do that in an organization.
Daniel Shaffer: And I think that right to say that, I mean, this is our playbook, right? We actually looking back and, we're saying post COVID, all the previous playbooks you might have had that worked from a financial perspective are out the door. And what we're hearing is actually relationships matter a lot. And I think that's a fantastic addition, Sinohe, just to say that, let's get back to trust. Let's get back to the relationships, whether they're online or in person but really building an understanding of your common goals in order to make some hard decisions together. Cause we all like to have unlimited resources, but it's not always the opportunity for every company to fund unlimited resources.
Sinohe Terrero: And I would add that in a startup environment, you are always ready for like the other shoe to drop in for you to be back in a bunker together. And if you're gonna be in a bunker with someone, you want it to be someone that you feel has your back.
Daniel Shaffer: Yeah. A hundred percent. So you were talking about really owning the number. And you just shared a few aspects of that in wearing the CRO hat, wearing the CFO hat. That's tough cuz you're, kind of split minded in terms of looking to the future to grow with a radical pace. But also then on the other hand saying, okay, wait, how are we gonna put this together? And how are we gonna fund this? Can you tell me about really owning the number, and what it means to you at your organization?
Sinohe Terrero: it's interesting because I've had both the CFO and the CRO role. I don't actually don't feel differently about the ownership of the number. Even when I'm just a CFO, because as a CFO, I felt equally responsible for the number, right? Like you work with your CEO on that top down sort of goal oriented thing with working with the board. And then, you know, you bring in, you know, FP and A, and sales operations, and sales and marketing to marry it to the bottoms up. And ultimately I am beholden and responsible for whatever number I put in front of the CEO as the end of that sausage making process and what we're saying with the board. so I always feel like I own the number, which is again, why I think the partnership with the sales lead are so critical. Cause I mean, we are tied at the hip on that, and it feels absolutely the same, whether I'm just a CFO or even I owning the number.
I yeah, do you see yourself as an investor? I mean, as a CFO, it's kind of an interesting concept we haven't played with, but as I'm hearing you talk now, it sounds like what you're saying is you're not trying to be that finance person just regulating every aspect of spend. You're looking at the best ways to, as you, in your words, enable people to grow and help grow the company.
I mean, that's that I think that's spot on. I mean, I think the CFO has evolved from, you know, like closing the books and making sure taxes are paid to really being a thought leader and strategic leader, particularly because, you know, you own data. I mean, at least I've owned data at the last five organizations and I've built a data team. And what that does is it bridges things so far up the funnel, if you will, where I am involved in product decisions, right? Because we're looking at metrics and we're looking at what impact product's gonna make. And I've been a part of conversations where I personally have killed products where I'm like, this is just not gonna work. The numbers don't make sense. I think, as opposed to just being a recipient of whatever. And you know, whether it's product or marketing or whatever plan they have, it's a little different now. You are at the Vanguard, you are in the front because you are part of that intimate sausage making process, even in the product development.So I think is, has evolved incredibly. And honestly, I spent so little time on closing the books in this company. And as I should be, I am spending a lot more time talking about what we're going to do in the future, I spend a lot more time talking to the product leader than I do talking to my controller.
Daniel Shaffer: I mean, there's a lot, that's happened since you were at Etsy. And the function really of corporate finance teams has maybe not changed, but like you said, evolved to become more strategic. Can you tell me what that looks like? And is there really a difference in the startup versus that public environment?
Sinohe Terrero: I mean, there definitely is. Yeah. And it's changed. First of all. The capital markets in fundraising, I mean, again, now we're going through a bit of a correction, so I don't know what it currently looks like. But back when I was at Etsy, if you raised a 10 million round at 200 million, like, you were crushing it. And so the rounds were smaller, the valuations were lower. And quite frankly, I think that led to a bit more efficiency. You had to like grind it out a bit more. And now, you know, over the last couple of years that's really changed, right? Like the dollars that people are raising are just exponential. And the valuations are astronomic. So that creates a different kind of pressure on the team, particularly on FP and A, and how you think about it because you're dealing with less mature organizations that you have to continue to educate on the fact that just cuz you have a hundred million dollars in the bank does not mean we can have like, you know, bouncy houses and unlimited Kombucha right. It's like you still have to be thoughtful about long term planning, which I think before, again, I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but you were just forced to be a bit more like we got 10 million, we gotta do X, Y, Z. I think the good thing about COVID. If there's anything good, is that it scared so many people straight that I think even people now with money have a bit more financial discipline. It's interesting. I was actually in a webinar yesterday saying everyone has a little bit of PTSD, no matter how much money you have in the bank. Because you don't know when the next thing is gonna happen. And clearly the economy is showing like the third, like, you know, COVID cousin when it comes to, you know, financial impact. and so I think it's changed. I think the space has changed. I think the amount of money people are raising has changed. And that has really changed how you gotta think about your organization, on the finance side and have really strict, not strict, but clear guardrails so that you're not just completely running off the map. And then in terms of difference between startup and public, I think it's really that maturity, in a startup like really there's a lot of things that just not mature that you still have to keep an eye on and you just have to figure out, well, how are you gonna be compliant enough? Right. Like tax, sales tax, you know, like international, global stuff, compliance, internal controls, all of those things in a public, you kind of have put together you know, as a CFO of a startup, you don't have all of those tools. So you have to be a bit more, you know, I say handy, if you will, and you are way more, you have to be able to fly this high, but go deep in the weeds cuz you don't have that many levels of expertise in the organization. And I think that's the biggest sort of difference.
Daniel Shaffer: Understood. There's a huge difference there in the startup versus public environment and the maturity that kind of the fun that goes with not having the maturity maybe, or Is the opportunity to really be flexible to be agile, to, you know, change the pace at which you are operating which you don't always have and expect from more mature and evolved public corporation that is kind of on a path, right. They're just delivering their 15 to 20% year over year to their shareholders. Whereas, you know, as a startup, you're like, okay, we gotta get 30%. We gotta find our sweet spot. So we're gonna have a lot of burn in order to do that that kind of brings us to the data. And you keep hinting at it, so we're gonna open this. And get a little bit more into data, cuz I have a feeling that you really have a passion about this. And in our cash crossroad section, we talk about technology being that enabler, being that kind of extra extra support system or mechanism that you have at your fingertips to give you the opportunity to make it happen.
Tell me a little bit more about your technology vision, today and how it's evolved over time. how does technology help you and your teams Sinohe make it happen?
Sinohe Terrero: Well, when I think about the data team and the finance team specifically I mean, first of all, it's evolved a lot from when, again, when I started building data teams back at Etsy, right? we were lucky if we had someone that even knew SQL back then. And I still remember we had a guy named CB that he was our sequel guy and we had to wait for his runs to happen overnight and, dump that into some kind of Excel. And then we put it into access and that was big leap. And then we finally put it into a visual thing. I think that's evolved so much. The stack right now is so complex because now we bring in a whole lot more. Not just like customer sales data, right? Like it's the responsibility of understanding the marketing funnel, understanding all the channels, you know, so that you can report back on things like CAC and, you know, acquisition costs, conversion. And so there is so much more that comes into that final, you know, decision process that you make in terms of how you allocate investment and funds that I think way more, there's just a lot more transparency to that and you can make a lot more smart decisions there. And so it's changed, you know, a whole lot. And quite frankly, I think right now, One of the challenges I think is that we have a preponderance of data. And I think that we're in an area where people think that if they're looking at dashboards with 5,000 metrics, that's the most data driven thing. And I'm like, actually, if you don't know the three metrics that you need as a company where you're completely failing. Right. And I tell my analyst all the time, I'm like we gotta peel the onion only until it makes us cry. But then after that, we need to stop peeling the onion, cuz you can go down a rabbit hole. There. So technology vision for me and how we're utilizing it is really combination of flowing information back up, particularly for FP and A so that we can understand business performance at a very intimate level. I think that back in the day and when I say back in the day, five years ago, you know, you would look and a lot of processes were like, did the sales people make their number? And the answer was either yes or no. And you know, that would be the extent of how much you're digging in. Cuz you're like, oh, we didn't make a number because of sales people didn't make their number. Then you dig in and say like, okay, well there's a lot of complexity there. Like, was it new business or was it expansion? If you're looking at new business, was it new business for marketing? Was it BDR outbound? Was it AE generated? Was it self-service? And do you have the data to figure out what the trajectory was for those specific pieces and then figure out the conversion and then figure out the average order values so that you can understand, okay. My dollar came from all of this stuff. And now when I'm speaking to my marketing partner, I can say, well, we know if we work our way back, that I need to provide you with this much money for you to give me one more dollar. And so making sure that all of those systems speak nicely and there's transparency and accuracy, I think are key. So I think that there's a, been a bunch of evolution there and we're living in a completely different world than when I started that's for sure.
Daniel Shaffer: you were talking about sales and those KPIs that you're trying to get to, how do you determine, you know, what are those numbers? Because when technology you're talking about data, but I wanna get really more precise, you know, we're, this is a CFO audience listening controllers. We have treasurers and finance leaders who are listening here. we can get into the kind of more technical aspects or not if you want. But I think that when you're talking about cash forecasting and really understanding where your numbers are today and that scenario modeling that you. Shared with us on multiple different levels. It's sales coming. In your money going out to grow the business. What are, how are you getting to that number and what are you comfortable with as an acceptable kind of cash forecast that you can bring to the board and say, okay, I have this much confidence in our burn rate. I have this much confidence in what's coming in and here's how we got there. How are you sharing those numbers? cuz today, as you were saying, data is totally different. You can get very granular and you can get it in real time. So what does that mean to you and how are you leveraging it?
Sinohe Terrero: So I think, for me, in terms of how we present it clearly for the board in terms of how we think about cash burn. So just I'm in a startup. So for us cash burn means right now in current market environment that you have at least 3 million of cash in your bank right now. And so, you know, part of it is sort of how do we pace ourselves to make sure that our deployment of resources is in line with that? First and foremost, I think one of the shifts that's happened over the last, honestly three, four months since the capital markets and frankly, private markets have changed, shifted is for startups like, be cautious because grazing money over the next 12 to 18 months is gonna be very different than it was over the previous, you know, two years. And so we start with that in mind to be like, Hey, survival, sort of first and foremost. And then we just make sure that we are being measured and have honestly as a CFO, I, and make sure that I have some buffers that I know. Okay. Like here are some parts of the stack that I know are in my benefit in terms of that predicting of cash. So I am actually aggressive in how I approach what the cash out is gonna be and a little conservative in what I think the cash in is gonna be understanding where I am creating those buffers so that I can extend to that three year path. And then that understanding of time to close, of actual resources needed from a CAC perspective can help me work with my marketing partners to be like, all right, here's how we're thinking about, you know, the magic number for the next quarter. Right. And the magic number is basically your added ARR when you compare that to your total sales and marketing spend in a period. Right. And so one of the key metrics that we try to do, and again, I was saying that yesterday I was saying that as a CFO is like, you're flying a plane. You have a bunch of different gauges. And you're just looking to make sure none of them are going into the red but not any one of those gauges is the only gauge you look at. One of the gauges that we look at here is that magic number, because it gives us a way to control how much we wanna put into the sales and marketing funnel in this quarter for that output. And then we compare that and look at our pipeline and say, okay, well, how is the pipeline generation happening? And do we see that there is a path to that number that I'm saying is gonna be in the next quarter? So that I can feel comfortable with the cash that I'm laying out this quarter, you know, for marketing. And so a lot of that is what comes into that, you know, preparation of that cash flow and the thinking, you know of it. And then in thinking about on development side and in the engineering hiring again, we're hiring a lot of engineers and we basically hire as many engineers, as possible what we are doing now. And this is more of a maturation. We're doing a bit more shirt sizing of how many hours do we think development will take for a specific initiative. And then what is the ROI on that? When do we think we're gonna have our first customer paying us for that? And so we go through those processes to think about long term investments that are gonna have short term cash flow impact, know, cash burn impact. And so that's more or less the process. I think, you know, again, we start with, you know, making sure that we have enough runway to get to the next stage. And that next stage could be our next round. That next stage could be some venture debt that we may have to raise that next stage may be our IPO. And then from there, we work our way back to make sure that we're being prudent in terms of that investment in marketing and sales, which is the biggest sort of, I'd say it's some cost, but you know what I mean? Like it's less like building and it's more like it needs to generate another dollar for me to be able to do that. And then we figure out, you know, the usual things that everyone that listens to the podcast know, well, how long does it take for customers to pay us? Once we do the bookings. What percentage of your folks are coming in as annual that goes figure out
Daniel Shaffer: Today's technology has given you data right now at your fingertips. It enables you to, as you say help grow your teams or help your teams grow the company. What's the number one technology you're using. And what is it giving you in terms of your confidence to do that, to help grow your teams?
Sinohe Terrero: I mean, I think table stakes for me at least is, you know, for us, we use looker internally here. I have my dashboard that I wake up to every morning, which I call morning coffee. And that dashboard is a consolidation of different parts of the organization. And for me, that's indispensable. I actually get a PDF to me in the morning at six. And then afterwards I come in and I drill in, and what that's telling me is the main sort of heartbeat of the organization across the board from pipeline that's being generated, sales that are being done. Honestly like, aging, like AR aging. So I combine all of those things into one dashboard that is not just, you know, actually very little accounting. It has mostly AR aging and stuff, but anyway, but Looker would be the technology that I think helps me the most. And I it's indispensable for me because I need to be able to look at the business broadly and I'm mostly trying to figure out trends. So to yours question specifically, and what gives me comfort, I'm looking for trends in the business. Every morning, I'm looking at a trend. I have waterfalls set up that look over month in terms of the different components of the business from churn to contraction, to new business, to expansion, to everything so that I can see how we're pacing and I can see if I am seeing that pathway to what I already said I was gonna have in my forecast. So for me, that's the number one indispensable technology. And it's to have some kind of, you know, data visualizer that allows you to get information from different sources that are key to your business from Salesforce, from your marketing funnels, from your customer base and from your accounting for critical things like cash collections and, you know, AR aging.
Daniel Shaffer: So you're saying confidence is really a driver for you and the technology that gives you the most confidence has the kind of. Presentation a dashboard view of where all your numbers are that you need to manage closely. And that gives you that opportunity with that dashboard to go into a meeting or share it with your counterparts or your business leaders to help them understand how and why. If you have to say no, you're saying no. Or if you're going for a big, yes, what's behind it.
Sinohe Terrero: And I think, again, it goes back to the change in the CFO landscape where I'm looking to the future. Right. And so my biggest thing is like, what can give me the most comfort about the predictions that we've made and that's trends, right? I'm looking at different trends. And I'm trying to understand how that looks seasonally, quarter over quarter, you know, year over year and trying to figure that out. But the sweet spot though, is to make sure you summarize that to just a few things, because again, you can have a dashboard that has a thousand levers, you know, you can't do that. It's really like one of the most critical. And I share this dashboard actually shared with the entire company. Because people are curious, like, what do you wake up to? I'm like, well, this is what I look at. So you should be looking it's because, you know, I named it morning coffee. And so people actually say, yeah, I was looking at morning this morning and I know that's dashboard 566 in Looker.
Daniel Shaffer: Well, you preempted our dialogue on the report from the future. So we're almost completely done recording that section, but, you know, You've shared with us as I look kind of think back on, on this really exciting call that it's about enabling people. Your role from the very beginning has been about kind of putting the pieces together but also giving the people the right information so they can be the best person. That they can be. One of the, one of the areas that you talked about too Sano was really, you know, coming from a different background. And if you don't mind, would you share with our audience, what you think is, you know, we talk about diversity inclusion. We talk about really working on. The best opportunity to go forward in a company. How does that cultural mix help you as a business leader? But also how do you think that is great for the company?
Sinohe Terrero: It's something that I'm very passionate about. I've been fortunate to be in the roles that I've been at. Unfortunately I've always been the one person of color in those, you know, sitting around those tables. And so I think that the thing that I think, and it's not just the, you know, person of color is also like my upbringing and the in New York and in the Bronx. For me, I think what I bring is I'm a pretty direct speaker. And I think sometimes you need to have someone that can speak sort of directly in those rooms so that we can sort of cut through the noise if you will. There's a lot of times where we basically wind ourselves up and if everyone has the same approach to the problem, or everyone has the same sort of either passive aggressive or, you know, like to consensus building, like you do need a little bit of different sort of thought in the room in order to move through and break through some of the things that I think sometimes holds companies back from making decisions, whether they're hard or not. I do think that, you know, people also relate to people that have different backgrounds quite frankly, differently. I think that, my story is something that may not be similar to other folks, I think that there's a high level of respect. And for some reason that actually, people listen. Right. You're coming at it from a different perspective and they understand that. And I think that's been incredibly valuable to me, but I think different ideas and different thoughts and people that come from different backgrounds are critical to make the best decisions. Cause if you have a bunch of people that think the same and say the same things sometimes that's just gonna lead to, bad results.
Daniel Shaffer: it's been fun to hear from your perspective as well about using data in order to really. Govern and inform, but your style of leadership is pretty cool. So knowing that you're not withholding you're while you own the number, you're also very transparent about giving the number out to say here's where we are. Let's work together to make this a better place to help grow the company. And I'm curious, you know, the next generation of CFOs. Do you think that they're gonna be leveraging data in the same way? Is AI gonna become a significant technology to help provide or replace people? What provide more information for people or potentially replace them? What do you think.
Sinohe Terrero: I think there's gonna be parts of the stack that are gonna be definitely automated. And I think we're seeing a lot of that stuff now in small ways, right? Like the accounting departments of today are not the accounting departments of 15 years ago. I mean, there are solutions for like every part of the cycle that it doesn't take it away completely. But look, I mean, if you look at bill.com, for example, Right. in a place where you needed like five people doing AP, like now you basically have one person kind of doing a part-time and it flows through and it connects to your accounting and, you know, reads the documents, organizes them. So there's a lot of that happening right now in I mean, I don't remember the last time I signed a check. Everything is automated. And so I think there's gonna be other things like that are gonna be coming in, particularly in the FP and a area. Right now, we're like, there's a lot of companies working on trying to solve, you know, budgeting. No one is really solved budgeting. Believe it or not. And so there's a lot of companies really trying to solve that to a big degree. And we're actually piloting a bunch of different solutions. we're a tech forward leaning company. We wanna have cool forward looking technology to solve our problems. And so we're not shy about testing stuff. I think that in the FP and A realm, there's gonna be a bunch of automation and AI that basically by the time you're doing your next year's budget is gonna tell you based on last year's budget and these three parameters, here's your budget. And it's gonna give you that first pass, right? It's gonna give you the first pass of the budget and then you're gonna go in and have humans, you know, change it around. But I think the stack is changing incredibly. I mean, you got Avalara solving your tax problems. You got bill com solving your billing issues. You got charge B Salesforce doing your bills for you. I mean, you know, before all of that was very manual, a lot of that stuff with that, a revenue recognition, you name it. So I think in finance, there's gonna be continuous evolution and better solutions for things like amortization. Right. Like I still think there's not perfect stuff for that. I think there's a lot of consultants that'll sell you something that they can solve it for you using some module. But there's still a lot because companies are very different, right? Every one of these like forecasting models is slightly unique. but there's gonna be a lot of evolution. And I think the future CFOs are gonna have a lot of tools that we right now can only dream of in terms of getting all of that sort. You know, hand it to them, which quite frankly, what it means is you get to focus on the big picture.
Daniel Shaffer: I love that. And what a great way to kind of bring this all together with maybe a final comment on this. You talked about Avalara handling tax and Salesforce handling sales, and, you know, you could probably go down the line. There's an opportunity I think for this. Notion of liquidity being managed in a very unique way, especially at the CFO treasurer level or potentially a new role within an organization. As you're saying Sinohe, the CFO has evolved to this CRO/CIO/CFO. Right. Kind of coming together to grow the company, to catalyze growth, through sales, to catalyze growth through technology, and to really ensure that the funding that liquidity is there and the right mechanisms are in place in order to give everyone the right tools so that they can be confident that their decisions going forward. Isn't gonna put the company in jeopardy. Would you think, given that. there's an opportunity for a refinement within this organization for a liquidity officer of some kind.
Sinohe Terrero: I think there's definitely gonna be a lot more of that in the coming years. Particularly as companies start to diversify their holdings with other currency. Is like cryptocurrency and whatnot. I know that's a hot topic right now I was talking to a company last week that was basically saying it was a CFO. And he was saying that one of the things that he needs to continue to educate the CEO on is the fact that because they have money does not mean they have liquidity. like, you know, because of where the money is stored and how they're being able to finance. So they are asset rich. But liquidity poor. Right. And so literally that conversation happened last week. And I think as we get into more complex vehicles in the future, I think there's definitely gonna be more and more need for this to be a focus area because it's not gonna be that straightforward. Right. We're not just gonna be dealing in, you know, USD sitting in something that you can liquidate right away. Like there's gonna be complexity to how you're gonna be deploying that capital. And there's gonna be complexity to how you retrieve said capital. So you're gonna have to figure a lot of things and a lot of different mechanisms to continue to provide liquidity, even though the asset is sitting somewhere else.
Daniel Shaffer: I feel like we're gonna have to reconnect in the future and dive into those technology sets, possibly ways of thinking because feel like I just scratched the surface when it comes to that. But Sinohe, this has been a real pleasure, really getting to know you, your philosophy about work and leading teams. I'm sure all those around you are excited every day to get their morning coffee. And I hope that we have a chance to do it again.
Sinohe Terrero: This was great. Thanks for having me and thank you for the way you actually run your interview. I've done a few of these, but, and you know, whether it's webinars or whatever, and it's interesting to see how personal it is. And I think it really shows that you're trying to show the entire human being that is being presented here with all the facets. And I am truly appreciative of that. So thank you.