This episode features an interview with Ravi Narula, Chief Financial Officer of FinancialForce, a cloud-based applications platform that accelerates business growth with customer-centric ERP, Professional Services Automation (PSA), and Customer Success solutions. Ravi has over 20 years of CFO experience, and he’s helped turn several technology startups into large, mature, public companies. On this episode, Ravi describes the growing role of the CFO, company risk management, and the future of AI technology.
This episode features an interview with Ravi Narula, Chief Financial Officer of FinancialForce, a cloud-based applications platform that accelerates business growth with customer-centric ERP, Professional Services Automation (PSA), and Customer Success solutions.
Ravi has over 20 years of CFO experience, and he’s helped turn several technology startups into large, mature, public companies.
On this episode, Ravi describes the growing role of the CFO, company risk management, and the future of AI technology.
Quotes
*”These are tough, challenging economic environments right now. How do we plan for it? Having a clear line of sight to what our long-term goals are and then connecting our short term actions to long-term goals becomes very critical.”
*”There's lots of things that CFOs have to focus on from a risk management perspective. And then governance plays a role. How do you empower the teams and the people while governing it from the corporate side? So there's a lot of balls up in the air, but more communication, more training, more standardization of policies helps a lot.”
*”How do we justify technology adoption and get some real hard ROI and benefits out of it? It's important that we connect some of these actions and data we get. And not only at the time of decision making, but after implementation. [We should] do an annual assessment [to look at] what can we do differently to adopt this thing even more? And not only looking at technology that is live. How many users are using it? How well accepted within the organization?”
Time Stamps
[1:45] Ravi’s path to CFO
[9:21] Cash Crossroads: Ravi’s technology vision at FinancialForce
[15:51] The Playbook: Finance Strategy at FinancialForce
[16:35] Risk management at FinancialForce
[25:08] Report from the Future: Ravi on the next generation of finance leaders
[28:39] Quick Hits: Rapid fire questions with Ravi Narula
Sponsor
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Links
Connect with Daniel on LinkedIn
Ravi Narula: These are tough, challenging economic environments right now, where we are and how do we then weather the storm? How do we plan for it? Uh, there are a number of. things I think having a clear line of sight to what our long-term goals are and then connecting our short term actions to long-term goals becomes very critical.
Narrator: Hello and welcome to The Invisible Vault.
This episode features an interview with Ravi Narula, Chief Financial Officer of FinancialForce. Ravi has over 20 years of CFO experience, and he’s helped turn several technology startups into large, mature, public companies.
On this episode, Ravi describes the growing role of the CFO, company risk management, and the future of AI technology.
But before we get into it, here’s a brief word from our sponsor…
Now, please enjoy this interview with Ravi Narula, CFO of FinancialForce, and your host, Daniel Shaffer.
Daniel Shaffer: My name is Daniel Schaffer and I'm your executive producer of The Invisible Vault. we're excited to have you today on our podcast. Financial Force is a very powerful name and also, uh, an incredibly interesting company. We look forward to hearing more about. And also we're very interested in learning about you, your leadership style, and really what matters to you as a CFO so much happening today. So let's get into that in a minute. Before we do, Ravi, just wanted to hear about you, kind of your path to cfo. Can you tell us why? Why finance? Let's start really at the beginning.
Ravi Narula: Hey Daniel, first and foremost, thank you for having me. Where I started with, my dad was a accountant earlier on and I saw him when I was a young, adult. I saw him interact with clients. And I, in those conversations with him, I would hear some of the business challenges my dad's clients were having. And I started thinking about, said, What can I do? If I was, then what can I do? And this was like when I was in my teenage years. getting an understanding of the business challenges earlier on in my life, Understanding some of those challenges got me into business side accounting, commerce. And that journey started from having a CA degree in in India to a CPA degree in Canada and us. So, and now I'm a CFO of Financial Force. One of the things which have really excited me while at Financial Force, but all the other previous companies I've been part of is how as a CFO I've been able to help shape the organizations which I've been part of. So it's solving the business issues. But now I look myself as how do, how do I help the organizations grow? And being an integral part as a CFO is amazing.
Daniel Shaffer: Well, we definitely want to hear more about that from you, Ravi, because I think today, as we found with many of our guests here on the Invisible Vault, it isn't a, single point of failure. the bottom line is something that is a reference point to help guide the company forward and then help determine. Perhaps recalibrate strategy when it's not hitting the mark.
Ravi Narula: Now it's, You are right Daniel. It's a journey. There's so many data points we all can connect our history to and saying this was an important moment and there have been number of pivotal points for me also, and this is earlier on when I was in Canada, I remember. I met one of the CFOs of a large company and he comes over and he says, What are, what are your long term aspirations? And I was so deep into the audit and emanating due diligence. I wasn't even thinking of those aspects And I told him, I said, Hey, I would love to be like you. I would love to be a CFO of a company at that time. And this is like 28, 30 years ago. That made me think, Okay, I told him I would love to be a CFO because I aspired him as a cfo. And that was a triggering moment for me, saying, Okay, when do I go on that journey? and at that moment it kind of crystallized that here was someone that you aspired to, who kind of had a, visionary purpose in life that was meaningful to you and helped, not only from that influence from your early days, uh, and your youth, but also in your early profession.
Daniel Shaffer: Ravi part of the reason why we're here today, Is in fact the guidance that you're providing today. And I hope that other aspiring CFOs find some insight that you will provide to them
Ravi Narula: Happy to, That would be a great outcome of this podcast.
Daniel Shaffer: That would be, so don't, don't be surprised if you get some inbound email that you typically don't receive.
Ravi Narula: I think it's the path to CFO is never a straight line, and there are so many different variations in there, but the more we can learn from other people and more we can help other folks. I think that is success. What I really look forward to.
Daniel Shaffer: Well, let's start with this really critical question. I think, you know, what is the CFO being asked of the board and the CEO today?
Ravi Narula: It's a very relevant question, Daniel. and these are very volatile times. macroeconomic environment, political geopolitical issues. There are so many things going on. And our job, one of the jobs we have as CFOs is to create stability in organization, during good times, as well as doing challenging times versus reacting to, Hey, Couple of years ago, lots of conversations were happening. Growth at any cost. Now it's profitability at any cost. So how do you balance the organization and focus on what are the long term goals of the company?
Ravi Narula: What's the vision strategy of the company, and how do you focus on those strategies without disrupting the employee base, the customer base, the company overall. but despite all of this thing happening, these are tough, challenging economic environments right now. How do we plan for it? Uh, there are a number of things. I think having a clear line of sight to what our long-term goals are and then connecting our short term actions to long-term goals becomes very critical. and having a true alignment between the ceo, the cfo, and the management team along with the board is super critical. The more respect and trust you can have from the board during the tough times, as well as doing the opportunistic times, regular dialogue with the board is super critical, so communication is important. Having a line of sight for the company about long term goals is super, super critical.
Daniel Shaffer: Well, there's a lot there to, to appreciate Let's dive into that, Ravi. Clearly there's a fine line between how you can invest in rapid growth, or what are the levers that need to be pulled in order to manage the assets or, perhaps, just the liquidity required in order to fund such a project. So in that case, it's a different role that the CFO plays as a strategic partner to the business. What does that role look like?
Ravi Narula: I think whether it's a recession or not, that role should look, and does look, lots of time the same. The CFO is one of the very senior leaders in the organization. One of the key goals for myself as a CFO is being a trusted business advisor, business partner to other functions. And for that to happen, you have to know their business, understand their pinpoints, understand the opportunities and risks. And those things don't just purely happen or should not be happening during the recession times or challenging times. They should be happening during the periods of growth, as well as when things are a little bit more challenged. So I'm a big believer of how do I help understand the business? How do I help understand my counterparts, other functional heads, challenges, opportunities?That's why CFO's role is not just looking at back office, it's also looking at working closely with the customer side, understanding the customer's expectations of our products, their challenges, what they're seeing. Cause if they're having challenges, we will have a challenge in terms of our growth side. So understanding the customer's needs and expectations is critical. Looking at accounting, finance, IR side, but also vendor negotiations, understanding the vendor side. I manage for example, IT and security. Do we have too many systems point solutions? Do we have shadow IT? So understanding the overall business is also important versus purely looking at accounting, finance, IR, treasury and tax side of it. So I think CFO's has become very broad, especially in the last 10 years. That puts them in a very good position also in the deciding table. And having that understanding helps them become a better and a trusted business partner. It, it is a massively expanded responsibility and I would imagine, fun. at some times, uh, quite a bit of hurdles to overcome to understand how to operate the business Thanks for sharing that. In our next section, Ravi, I think we can dive in even a little bit more. We call this section the Cash Crossroads,, and here what we're looking to explore is your technology vision.
Daniel Shaffer: what is your personal vision for technology and how it enables the role of the cfo?
Ravi Narula: Daniel, I'm in a very unique position, CFO of a technology company. Technology keeps evolving and changes so fast and I love those changes. My job has never gotten boring.And I believe even before you go into technology, people first. People are the foundation for any organization. Once you have the right people, right mindset, technology adoption is the second most important aspect. I think technology enables productivity. but once you have the right level of people, people who are fit for those motivated to drive technology adoption, it makes a huge difference in terms of productivity within companies. So I'm a big believer of technology and technology adoption. We sell next generation solutions to our customers. I buy next generation solutions for our business also. But I am a believer of two or three important things. I prefer to have platform approach versus lots of point solutions. So I do feel sometimes if you have too many point solutions, you could be in a silo. Second is I do look at technology, which is scalable and repeatable versus somebody has used it in the past lives may not have been fully embraced, fully adopted, so, fully tested. So how do we look at some technology solution which can scale well with the growth in the business? How do we, before we justify technology adoption, which I'm a big, big believer of, how do we justify technology adoption and get some real hard ROI and benefits out of it? I think it's important that we connect some of these actions and data we get. and not only before at the time of decision making, but after implementation and do an annual assessment, what can we do differently to adopt this thing even more? And not only, uh, looking at technology that it is live or not. How many users are using it? How well accepted within the organization. That's where the power of technology will come in. So I love technology and I feel, It's pushing it to the next level about looking at the ROI, How can I improve my business solutions when business actions processes, which will take us to the next level?
Daniel Shaffer: What a great answer. I think we're done here. Let's just close up for the day. (laughs)There's so much more. I think you're, you're bringing to the table, Ravi, I don't know, let me play the devil's advocate a little bit cause I think I probably agree with you up front. But at the same time, if you were advising a CFO and making tech decisions, there's a lot of bespoke opportunities out there. For creating an ecosystem of, uh, solutions that are more point solutions just connected really smartly with APIs, for example, in, in the sense that if you can consolidate data into one purview, but it is a variety of point solutions, they just happen to be integrated. Wouldn't that perhaps provide an opportunity for the CFO to align groups as opposed to Silo groups, as you were saying.
Ravi Narula: Yes, but I would say this is unfortunate, the systems don't today exist, which will enable CFOs not to have point solutions. They need to embrace technology there. Lots of people are like me. They would want to embrace technology, which they are, but there's no platform solution which exists easily. How do we create a full platform 360 visibility and view of our customers by offering a very detailed platform solution? That doesn't mean our customers or us are not using point solutions. We are. but I think there's an opportunity in the services industry, especially in the CFO office, that they can look at vendors who have a very different horizontal approach versus vertical approach in terms of solving their problem. We have, we do our close, month and close. You have an ERP system, you have a separate planning system. Sometimes you have tax, provision systems. You have the cash liquidity side, the connections on bank reconciliations. You have different banking platforms, you have so many expense, side of it, so many of those. What does it mean you need to hire five or seven extra people just to deal with different technology solutions there versus if you have a a platform solution without too many different point solutions, you can actually have much less number of people. But more important than that, having a full visibility about your business from not only GL historical financials to revenue recognition, to cash to future planning, the more you have a solution, on a platform basis, will eliminate the need for point solutions.
Daniel Shaffer: Sure makes sense. Yeah. And I think that really, if you're looking to unlock opportunities at your organization, you're gonna want to have the solution that that gives the best, most holistic view of liquidity and how that intersects across all points of the business. You might be able to increase, your opportunity, uh, to react quicker because your data is more seamlessly integrated. But you're also, as you're saying, even looking at the overhead of different groups, uh, you might be able to manage and, and reduce the FTE based on the organizational structure, I'm curious if, if you agree with that perspective or if there's something, a different point of view that you have.
Ravi Narula: No, I totally agree. We are in around eight or 10 countries. So having one platform where you can move cash and be very, very nimble and managing the cash and liquidity makes it amazing for that. So that's just one example of having full visibility, having one platform which makes you nimble and provides us so much more liquidity is just one aspect, what we have done. And I think the more we have those solutions out there, makes the CFO job much easier.
Daniel Shaffer: Fantastic. Let's talk a little bit about the playbook, And in this section we go into risk, and perhaps you're already hinting Ravi at some of the risks that you face if you're not using a platform approach, and you don't have the kind of integrated resources , analyzing your data and providing the best means to decide what to do with your liquidity that is going to be problematic. So tell us a little bit about risk management for you. What type of risk do you see and how are you maintaining a healthy risk profile for the company?
Ravi Narula: risk management is always critical in lots of CFOs thoughts, right? They don't want surprises, they don't want miscommunication and something happens. managing risk proactively becomes very critical. Whether you're a public company, whether you're a private company, you want to make sure that the people within the CFO organization and outside are talking the same language in terms of what are the expectations, how to deal with it, and communication breakdown happens. If you are now on different ERP solutions, you're on different systems there and you're having different experiences, they make it very hard and complicated. So I think first and foremost, being on the same page, having the technology, having the people understanding the training side of it, those are very critical elements in terms of reducing the risk, whether it's a risk of fraud, whether it's a risk of communication breakdown and people having different accounting adjustments. we had one of the companies, I had had subsidiaries in 25 or 27 countries around the world. There were sometimes when you are closing the books, you don't know who has made what adjustments. So if you have a customer bad debt, adjustment to make, the individual country manager, country finance director made the adjustment cause they assume there's a bad debt coming. and then the regional director, had a conversation with the controller here in the corporate site saying, Hey, we need to make adjustments. And those entries got booked twice. So communication breakdown can happen. there are always risks of fraud. There's risk of lack of communication, and you find out there's some challenges there. So CFO's role is not only understanding the risk management for their function, but also am I taking risk in this environment? It's important to look outside the traditional roles of a cfo. Do I have good credit review policies? Do I have good assurance that all the customers are as financially viable as they wanted? So I think there's lots of things that CFOs to focus on from a risk management perspective. And then governance plays a role and How do you empower the teams and the people while governing it from the corporate side? So I think there's a lot of balls up in the air but I think it's more communication, more training, more standardization of policies helps a lot. Absolutely. Especially for an international team working on different time zones. the complexity of that risk management increases overall, especially for, really clear communication that enables the most ability to manage risk.
Daniel Shaffer: You mentioned fraud. where do you assign the responsibility for making sure, or reporting back to you that fraud, isn't a concern?
Ravi Narula: Fraud is everyone's job. It's not just CFOs, it's not the general counsels, it's everybody, every functional head, they have to be cognizant of this. one of my experiences from 20 plus years ago, I was at, a public accounting firm, and I did, there was a company: huge public company, which had committed huge amounts of fraud and I, I went there as an auditor to help them restate and get out of bankruptcy. They were, they went into bankruptcy because of the fraud there. There were just no, no controls around it. some of those individuals had booked entries just based on guidance from the controller or the CFO, and hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue entries were booked there. So there was a huge impact in the economy from those things. What I learned earlier on in my career is you can't let these type of things happen. You have to take charge of it, and you build processes and systems with the right people and right mindset so you don't have to deal with those issues. You have to have the people who have the right mindset. Their job is. So even if I have a controller, his job is not purely to do what I tell him. His job is to ask me or guide me, Hey, these are different things I should consider. So it's a partnership on that front. The more we have these open dialogue, we'll reduce the risk of fraud. That's one aspect. Setting processes is important. how do we standardize our processes and practices is another aspect of it.Integrity for CFOs, for finance people, for the company overall is super important. when I hire, I am looking for people who, who have integrity as one of the top traits. as long as you build the right people, right processes and systems, other stuff can be managed a lot more. Obviously, CFO has had to be aware of fraud, like there are so many bad actors out there. So that's where training comes in as an important aspect. But I think you have to build, you have to fight fraud from grounds up versus dealing with it from the top. Thank you for that. It starts with the practices and the people. And being able to read and understand the data.
Daniel Shaffer: Let's talk a little bit about that data when it comes to FX management. . I'm just curious, Ravi when you talk about a culture of managing, currency risk, What is the data that you're looking for? How do you really optimize that, that data?
Ravi Narula: So there's a natural hedge we have. But still having the natural hedge still impacts us. There's volatility around it. So how do we, want to minimize their volatility from fx. So first and foremost, I would encourage everybody to say, Look at your exposure and if you need to put in some FX policies, That's important. Once you have the FX policies, if you have an audit committee or a board, you would want to discuss those policies with the board and the audit committee, get that approved and get some outside help in terms of developing the policy. So once you have those, then you can say, Do you know how much exposure do we have, in terms of revenue, in terms of expenses? Having an understanding of that is actually very, very insightful. Then there are so many players out there, which are there to help you manage your FX, as well as the hedging policy there. Hedging policy, the accounting for hedging is not very simple. It is complicated. So you would want to either have a trusted business partner who can help you. So looking at the holistic view of fx, the exposure that the policy you want, the hedging you wanna do, the accounting policies, the strengths, accounting entries you have to do. So it's from start to the finish, but look at holistically and I think you'll come out well and then having a good alignment at the board level or with the investors. I think it's important to have a good understanding of it.
Daniel Shaffer: What am I trying to solve for? And that's really what it gets to when you're talking about setting that hedge policy and having an understanding of what problem you may have. What are those exposures? It sounds so simple, just protecting your assets, like by offsetting the, the risk of that cha currency exchange. But truly it's a daily operation and if you don't have the right data, you wouldn't be able to make the right assessment and probably could cost a company a lot of money.
Ravi Narula: Daniel, you asked the hedging on FX site, the same thing on hedging on interest rates is also a big discussion point at the board level saying interest rates are going up. Yesterday went up. So how do you minimize your exposure on interest expenses? So and they all fall as part of risk management. How do you minimize the risk for some of these aspects? It's not about me timing the market for making profit, it's more about creating consistency, creating stability within the organization. What are the other types of risk that you're solving for, and you rightly said as certainly the challenge today with interest rate risk going up so quickly. Hedging policy is also becoming quite astronomically expensiveoptimizing where you hedge and how you hedge is as important as having a hedge policy itself. Very true, yes. There's no simple, easy answer. Find business partners who can help you in this thing because one is: CFOs don't do this every day. Second is it's not easy. It's super complicated. And third, Daniel, as you said, is very expensive.
Daniel Shaffer: Picture perfect. Let's talk a little bit about the report from the future. What does the next generation of finance leaders need to become a cfo?
Ravi Narula: That's a great topic. Great question. CFO role has evolved a lot in the last 10 years. Previously, used to be back office, hey, accounting side, finance side, forecasting, budgeting. just last week I was at the investor conference. So I went there and as a CFO now you have to talk about strategy, vision of the company. Obviously you have to talk about all the numbers. So CFO role is way beyond just closing the books. Treasury management, risk management. It's a lot more than that. I think being a business partner we talked about earlier, Daniel, somebody who has earned the respect of his or her, counterparts is extremely important. And that means dealing with understanding the problems, dealing with understanding the customer's expectations, dealing with customers, vendors, they are all important. The next generation individuals, aspiring finance leaders, I would just encourage them to look at one approach. Issues from an open mind saying, What? How can we solve a problem? I have a vision and mission statement. I use the statement, realistic assessment of opportunities, and risks. obviously CFO's role is realistic. You have to be realistic, You talked about data. there's lots and lots of data available to us. The more important part is what do you do with the data when you have that. And one of the CFO's role is, how do I help? Look at the data, help educate other people from the data, which will become actionable and insightful. I would encourage, look at the business, be part of the business side versus the back office. Get connected to sales, get connected to marketing, understanding the customer's needs, expectations. Ask those open ended questions from the customer success people. So understand the story is very important for current CFOs and future CFOs.
Daniel Shaffer: I'm curious if you think like a business intelligence or visual data solution and AI are really critical in the future role of the CFO as well.
Ravi Narula: We are living in a world where there's lots of data. One of the stats I was listening in, uh, reading through it was data is going to double in five years. So there's so much data, you cannot do enough with that data. So what do you do? You have to leverage AI and to assess the data which can have an impact on the business. And you can, you can get lots of that insight from understanding the business, but leverage the technology. The more we leverage the technology, the more we understand our data, and then machine learning plays a role. We leverage Einstein a lot for, data analysis. We have a corporate dashboard and I get insights from lots of people splicing the data from different angles and investing into warehouse data, like just to see where we, what we want to do with the data. I think lots of companies have data. They just don't leverage the data to get insights out of it very well. What do we now do differently is something which I have invested my time in, but I will continue to invest more and more of my time in.
Daniel Shaffer: Oh, thanks for that, Ravi. Let's work in the last part of our Invisible Vault. just what we call quick hits. So just a kind of knee jerk reaction or top of mind, brief response to a couple questions here. This one always hits people in different ways. So curious what your thoughts are about the future of digital currencies for finance leaders.
Ravi Narula: it's going to stay forever now with us. So this is going to get bigger and bigger. I feel we are all should be embracing it, but I think there's a huge future for CFOs to participate in digital currencies in future.
Daniel Shaffer: Excellent. And you know, you just mentioned the CFO's role has expanded tremendously. So in that regard, it seems like the CFO has to know much more about more parts of the business. And yet not forget about some of the more critical factors of the business fundamentals itself around liquidity and how liquidity empowers the business to grow. So in that case, will there ever in your mind, be a new role that may arise at the level of the executive team that maybe would be called the Chief Liquidity Officer?
Ravi Narula: I think we are all focusing on whether it is the VP of Finance, the treasury, director or the CFO. They all play a role towards the chief liquidity officer. Whether they'll be a separate role or not, I don't know. But I think these positions will have to put more prominence into liquidity in the future
Daniel Shaffer: That was a, that was a safe bet. Your legal team will appreciate that. tell us about artificial intelligence, Ravi, sticking around, replacing people, or maybe just a splash in the pan.
Ravi Narula: Oh, it's going to stay here for long, long time. Artificial intelligence, whether you're driving a car or whether you're doing other things. So it's, it's not going away. And I think without people, AI is not going to be anything. So it's combination of AI and people.every organization is going to leverage AI and embrace it more, but it will not replace people. But at the same time, I think people can do a lot more with that data so they can make better business decisions. What I'm hearing from you, Ravi, is leadership is really the critical component here. the right vision and leader, empowering them with the right technology, and then asking the questions that help the business grow.When it comes to having a single ERP or a single process for finance, do you think that that one platform is really gonna be able to solve every problem?
Daniel Shaffer: I just wanted to get your take on how the ecosystem might be enhanced by a solid central platform, but with the right tools connected in with maybe perhaps a modern API approach. What are, what are your thoughts on the ecosystem versus the platform?I think we all work in an ecosystem which is very complex and evolving very fast. Having one platform makes the job, much easier. But in addition, there are so many new Point solutions because technology is evolving,
Ravi Narula: so one platform will not be able to solve every problem. So having point solutions or an ecosystem where you could have some solutions which are addressing the company's needs are going to always exist, and do exist today. So I think as cfo, you have to look at which solutions are going to help you scale the organization without creating too much disruption. But if you have 25 different solutions for one, let's say AP function, your AP team is going to run around and be very challenged, so you have to have a vision and strategy. My platform gives me that, uh, launching pad and now, which are the top three or four or five solutions in that ecosystem you want to invest in so you can have great, meaningful productivity, great results, and your team is embracing the technology. I think that would be an ideal solution. So having a strategy for long term about the ecosystem I think the more you can connect these point solutions through APIs and not have manual downloads and all those will actually help your scale in your organization.
Daniel Shaffer: A pain point I'm sure for all CFOs and IT leaders is this idea of project creep.And so just ensuring that all the systems are optimized and really empowering the company to do what it needs to do. Ravi I really appreciate you joining us here today on the Invisible Vault.
Ravi Narula: Thank you for having me, Daniel. It was a wonderful conversation and I appreciate your listeners listening in.
Daniel Shaffer: I really did learn a lot from my conversation with Ravi today, and I have a few key takeaways I wanna share. Trust, integrity, teamwork, and technology all together are critical to the role of the CFO not only to help grow the business, but to help keep it, right sided in an environment that is increasingly volatile. But there's a few components that are critical to support that leadership. Bring on the right people, having a unified view of data to optimize decisioning across the organization. And then having the data to really support the conversation around minimizing risk and optimizing opportunity. Another interesting outtake here is that FX or risk management at the currency exchange level is really a board level conversation, but having in a rising interest rate environment, the ability to communicate with the right partners at the board were also key insights that Ravi provided. This concludes this session of the Invisible Vault Podcast. Thank you for joining us today.